In this amazing episode of Dreamland, Robert W. Sullivan IV returns to talk about movie symbolism–and it turns out to be one of the most powerful and provocative shows we have ever done! Robert not only clues us in to the hidden symbolism that exists in the movies, he and Whitley go deeper in the third half hour, describing how to turn your enjoyment of great movies like the Star Wars Trilogy and Christopher Nolan’s Batman movies into a transformative part of your own inner journey!
Nobody–but nobody–has ever talked about these subjects in this way before. Nobody has any real idea that there is a profound spiritual journey on offer in the movies, but it is there.
For example, did you know that Gnosticism and Alchemy play a huge role in the movies, and that Jacob’s Ladder is really the Ladder of Osiris, that is to say, the spine, and that the creators of the film clearly understood this?
Robert’s website is RobertWSullivanIV.com.
Robert’s books are a really useful tool for anybody who wants to deepen their understanding of the hidden message of the movies. To get them on his website, click here.
Spoiler alert: There are spoilers that refer to the film Jacob’s Ladder in this interview.
Films discussed are Jacob’s Ladder, Dark City, Psycho, Blade Runner, the Batman series, the Joker, the Star Wars series, the Matrix series and the Cabinet of Dr. Caligari. Except for Jacob’s Ladder, there are no spoilers.
DO NOT MISS THE OBSERVERS: Powerful documentary with Whitley, Linda Moulton Howe, Jesse Ventura, Lue Elizondo, Jimmy Church. Richard Dolan, John Greenewald, William Henry and Deb Kauble! Click here to watch a 4 minute preview!
Subscribers, to watch the subscriber version of the video, first log in then click on Dreamland Subscriber-Only Video Podcast link.
For a somewhat similar depiction of life-as-limbo such as Jacob’s Ladder, check out the British series Life on Mars and its successor, Ashes to Ashes.
The nine knocks…how could I forget. Embedded in my psyche from age five, with the most vivid ‘dream’ I ever had, then or since. But I was fascinated to hear the discussion about a connection with ‘hell’, as for me, that came immediately after the knocks, in the form of the Devil, flying around the house, laughing, mocking me in the most cruel way. I think it would take a fair chunck of work to transform that black-horned **** into an Angel. But perhaps that is my challenge.
Don’t try to change the Devil. Just invite him to dinner and find common ground. Trust me. Humans ALWAYS have common ground with the Devil. Doesn’t mean you have to turn to evil. Just means you can have a “spirited” conversation! I have had many nightmares where I was chased by a monster. I finally learned, in a semi-lucid sense, to just turn around and chat up the monster, sort of like Bugs Bunny doing the nails of the orange 2 humped monster chasing him in the mad scientist’s castle. “I bet you monsters must meet some very interesting people, and I just love to hear about interesting people….”. I swear that the writers of those cartoons must have been gay. No cartoon character has ever been more campy. than Bugs Bunny. Camp is a gay way of becoming the trickster and parodying mainstream society.
Haha, thanks. I will set the table… then have think about whether I actually want to send out the invite.
What I don’t understand is how conscious the writers and directors are of what they are doing. Do they sit down and say ‘let’s do a hermetic/gnostic/alchemical film’? Or do they just produce a great piece of entertainment which encapsulates such ideas? Or maybe it’s a bit of both.
Great show and entertaining guest. I agree with David (above). I think in the majority of cases it’s more about adding something ‘edgy’ that looks cool than anything else. In David Lynch’s work you could go nuts with interpreting it how you want, but he’s primarily a surrealist who’s playing with what’s known and what’s unknown. He’ll be looking at all kinds of books and ideas, but he’s throwing them together, I suspect, fairly randomly. I think it has more to do with asthetics than mind control. There is lots of cool imagery in esotric art and literiture. In my experience artists make the art in ignorance, and it is explained by others later.
Thanks Michael. Very helpful. Totally agree
Having said all that…The original Mary Poppins movie with Julie Andrews and Dick Van Dyke, don’t get me started 🙂
The dirty Dutchman with his mucky brush shoving it up Mary’s chimney…that can’t be a coincidence!
I know what you mean. Interestingly PL Travers who wrote the original Mary Poppins books was a disciple of Gurdjieff and wrote a book about him. She also wrote a book called ‘What the bee knows’ which is a reflection on symbol, myth and story and which is largely incomprehensible to me at least. I think Disney rather watered down the theosophical and alchemical ideas in the Mary Poppins books.
I had the privilege of being in the Gurdjieff Work with her and being her friend. She was a truly extraordinary person.
Personally, I don’t think it has anything to do with mind control, or aesthetics really…but the desire to hook into deep-felt archetypal characters, behaviours and stories.
I have heard that it is pretty much required reading for any script writer to be fully conversant with the mythic ‘Hero’s Journey’ cycle, as set out by Joseph Campbell (‘The Hero with a Thousand Faces’). I worked with a book author who has a business coaching other budding authors to do the same…and the main character in his own book is called Hero! This character, purposefully, follows the above cycle very closely – only the mask changes – the underlying trials, tribulations and transformations, stay the same. I find it quite cynical in a way, that there is this hidden secret of formulating stories based on a set cycle. They are effectively hooking the reader / watcher (unbeknownst to them) with archetypical forms that are known, to those in the know, to be appealing. Like catching a moth with a fake moon. Easy.
I have also heard, that if any major script is presented that does not conform to this cycle, it is automatically rejected. These script gatekeepers perpetuate the cycle – so it is not surprising this story model appears over and over again.
Whether this is just because it is known to always be popular (subconsciously) and therefore likely to make more money, or whether for some deeper need to imbibe the movie with a form of esoteric power, I’m not entirely sure.
Either way, I am sure it is done on purpose.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero%27s_journey
‘Jacob’s Ladder’ was great film! What’s interesting is that I didn’t see the gnostic and alchemical aspects in the same way. The movie resonated with me via ‘The Tibetan Book of the Dead’, and the six realms (Bardos). Yeah, they have demons too!
I actually saw ‘The Sixth Sense’ a few years before ‘Jacob’s Ladder’. Unfortunately (fortunately?) I realized immediately what was happening in ‘The Sixth Sense’, so the ‘surprise’ at the end was no surprise for me, but I enjoyed it a lot, nevertheless. Seeing it through a different lens from many people was interesting, because I could focus on the relationship between the young boy with special ‘gifts’ and the man who was supposed to be helping him. Instead it was the living and ‘dead’ helping one another in ways that I am very familiar with on a personal level.
I have seen most of the films that were discussed, and I am a huge fan of all kinds of movies, including foreign films, so I would also love to hear Sullivan’s take on some non-Hollywood movies ( fun with Ingmar Bergman– And Von Sydow—‘The Seventh Seal’! ).
When my younger son was in high school, we had a long discussion about ‘Batman’ vs. ‘Superman’, and my son recognized how ‘Superman’ was more of a Christ-like figure, whereas ‘Batman’ was the dark side, needing to evolve and grow into—something more. For age 16, I was pleased to see my son going deeper on such things.
At the Dreamland Festival in 2008, I remember having a one-on-one conversation with Linda Moulton-Howe about how we might all be avatars in somewhat of a ‘Matrix’ reality, although we never mentioned ‘The Matrix’. I mentioned that one soul may have numerous avatars or beings going on at the same time, and got a big “yes” from Linda. We didn’t have much time to pursue the conversation further, but she understood what I was getting at, which was gratifying.
Cool interview!
Whitley you might find this interesting. There was a brief period in the very late 50s or early 60s when Batman was re-cast (I guess you would say) from a crime fighting type of super detective, For a few issues of Detective Comics and Batman Comic he and Robin were confronted with aliens and paranormal type foes. As I’m sure you remember the feedback letters from readers were a central part of the comic books. There was a strong reaction against the emphasis on “outer space” type scenarios and DC quickly returned to The Joker and other bad guy type criminals.
Thank you, I really enjoyed this interview…….
Hopefully this new movie will open doors for a lot of people, new ideas and thoughts about entering a higher consciousness/a higher dimension? I am looking forward to seeing it.
“The Matrix: Resurrections.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znREJhnlMCc
THE MATRIX 4 RESURRECTIONS Official Trailer #1 (NEW 2021) Keanu Reeves Action Movie HD – YouTube
I’m looking forward to seeing it too but it’s a real shame Laurence Fishbourne wasn’t invited to star in it.
Interesting and like the others, I have seen many of these images and symbols in films myself. It is true that in the west, it seems to all seems to go back to the question of “what is the nature of Reality” posed by those ancient Greek (pre-Milesian) philosophers, especially Plato and Pythagorus (the Egyptian influence). Now here we are in the 21st still grappling whilst also on the cusp of unleashing AI and the “Metaverse” on the world. It seems the similacra wants to replicate itself (as all living things do). A long time ago, when the Matrix came out on DVD, we figured out that you can stop and magify the lettering on the book that the hacker, unenlightened Neo pulls of the shelf at the very beginning–it is Jacques Beaudrillard’s famous work: Simulacra and Simulation which is where the now infamous line from the film: “Welcome to the desert of the real” comes from. They hyperreal is a characteristic of postmodern philosophy and the French neo marxist pomo philosopher predicted pretty much everything that has occurred: terrorism on the scale of 9/11, life lived through the screen, the screen as the “real life”, etc. Reality television is a classic example. There have been college classes taught about this and the correlations with Buddhist ideas of that film in particular so the hermetic and gnostic correlations do not surprise. As a teacher of mythology and folklore, my mind often goes to the end of the trilogy with the Arthurian barge to Avalon imagery and the machines co-opting the imagery of Ra and/or Apollo and other archetypes of the solar deity. I personally think that many of these films are a mish-mash of collective unconscious imagery and that there is probably some channeling going on by screenwriters. In other words, I would be hesitant to attribute it all to Gnosticism, which in itself leans heavily on more ancient traditions that came before it. And what came before those? I dunno. That’s what we’re all here trying to parse out.
Lately the husband and I have enjoyed some non-Western productions of T.V. shows like the Turkish “The Gift” on Netflix (I think) and the Korean “Sisyphus” in which the X-Factor of love (and choosing forgiveness) makes a big difference in how things play out across multiple timelines. These are intense dramas cultural overtones not familiar to Americans, but with powerful messages embedded in fascinating narratives of the supernatural and high strange. Yes to the Jungian and the shadow work and the quest for the Real, but at the end of the day, it is only love. Best regards friends in high strangeness and peace.
Interesting and like the others, I have seen many of these images and symbols in films myself. It is true that in the west, it seems to all seems to go back to the question of “what is the nature of Reality?” posed by those ancient Greek (snf pre-Milesian) philosopherd. Plato’s “Allegory of the Cave” is a story told 600 years before the neoplatonists but is the story of the enlightened one “seeing the Light” and probably the basis for the story in the bible about Paul’s conversion on the road to Damascus in which he sees a blinding light. I prefer Plato over the Neoplatonists myself as it is more original source material, but I have recently been learning that Plato was essentially conveying Pythagorean ideas. A long time ago, when the Matrix came out on DVD, we figured out that you can stop and magnify the lettering on the book that the hacker, the unenlightened Neo, pulls of the shelf at the very beginning–it is Jacques Baudrillard’s famous work: Simulacra and Simulation which is where the now infamous line from the film: “Welcome to the desert of the real” comes from. They hyper-real is a characteristic of postmodern philosophy and the French neo-marxist pomo philosopher predicted pretty much everything that has occurred: terrorism on the scale of 9/11, life lived through the screen, the screen as the “real life”, etc. Reality television is a classic example. There have been college classes taught about the Matrix and the correlations with Buddhist concepts so the hermetic and gnostic correlations do not surprise. As a teacher of mythology and folklore, my mind often goes to the end of the trilogy with the Arthurian barge to Avalon imagery and the machines co-opting the imagery of Ra and/or Apollo and other archetypes of the solar deity. I personally think that many of these films are a mish-mash of collective unconscious imagery and that there is probably some channeling going on by screenwriters. I would be hesitant to attribute it all to Gnosticism, which in itself leans heavily on more ancient traditions that came before it. And what came before those? I dunno. That’s what we’re all here trying to parse out here on the cusp of the Simulacra’s metamorphosis (or evolution if you want) into the Metaverse. The fact that the Simulacra wants to complexify into the metaverse gives me the most encouragement that the Earth is evolving, perhaps dividing like a cell because As Above, so Below, and the Simulacra is desperate to become real. As a machine, the replication of natural systems that it has absorbed knowledge (data) form the algorithms of its quest. (We are it’s tools if we let ourselves be that.) Many stories, such as P.K. Dick’s Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, which is what Bladerunner is based on, address that concept of the machine’s desire for sentience.
Lately the husband and I have enjoyed some non-Western productions of T.V. shows like the Turkish “The Gift” on Netflix (I think) and the Korean “Sisyphus” in which the X-Factor of love (and choosing forgiveness) makes a big difference in how things play out across multiple timelines. These are intense dramas cultural overtones not familiar to Americans, but with powerful messages embedded in fascinating narratives of the supernatural and high strange. Yes to the Jungian and the shadow work and the quest for the Real, but at the end of the day, it is only love. Best regards friends in high strangeness and peace.
Whitley what would be his insights into Communion :)? I truely appreciate your contribution to our psyche!! Don’t leave us too soon please! We’d all miss you VERY much. Suez
Forgive me for this, but Sullivan has an interesting habit of mispronouncing names. Shyamalan becomes Solomon, Abrams becomes Abraham, and Batman comes out “Basque-man”. I’m not aware of any connections there, but Solomon, Abraham, and Basque mythology proved interesting research topics on their own.
Very interesting. I’m glad DUNE was mentioned but wish he’d gone into Paul’s prophethood more. That’s what i would ask in the video chat which i seldom have time to attend due to my young kids. Would be interesting to hear what he said about your films. Or did he already on his first visit?